Braided Break Lines

[Dom86]

OK, i know i need Braided Break lines and clutch line. But the prices for them in Aus is ridiculously high.

So i am highly tempted to go to US ebay for the purchase. When you consider that you can get 4 lines plus the clutch line for under $100, this is extremely tempting.

Now before you start saying they will be shit quality, you get what you pay for and all that, Ive read the description of the lines, and the ADR standard thingy.

the only thing missing from from the US break line description is the Whip test. There is no mention of it which is understandable cos its an AUS standard.

being the land of law suits I'm thinking the must be made to a high standard.

So has anyone used these lines? anyone, whats your educated opinion?

[preston]

I'm running braided lines on the front. pedal response from that and bmc stopper improves brake pedal feel. I can tell where my tyre threshold is before they lock.

Things to look out for.
improper end fitting installation, frayed braiding, kinking during shipment, correct thread on end fitting (some are threaded to tighten anti clockwise) and what rubber they are made from. Some lines although braided can be of a rubber not suited to brake fluid.

[Blown86]

I was just looking at a brake kit last week, supposedly from the US.
It appears that quite a few yank suppliers present products as US origin but the parts are actually cheap Chinese stuff.

For example, the kit I saw had cheap Chinese braided brake lines, too dodgy to fit and the fittings were very poor quality, it all went into the bin.
This was a $3,500 brake kit! :blink:

[balistic]

Yeah I bought a set of braided brake lines off eBay for my Sprinter, they were actually from Canada though - less than half the price of local ones. They arent hard to make if you have the hose, fittings and the right tools, most good brake or hose places will make them so I figured its no different some brake place here making them than some place in the states or Canada.

But, having said that:

I havent used them yet.
My car is a track only car so I don't have to worry about ADR's etc.
I will be checking them regularly(ie between races) for any signs of failure or leaking.

I purchased a set of non ADR cheap brake lines a few years ago for my WRX, they were fine for about 6 months or so with half a dozen sprints thrown in until before one meet I was changing the brake pads and noticed that on the front lines the outer nylon covering of the braid was swollen with brake fluid, it seems as though the fittings on the ends of the hose werent sealing properly and allowing fluid to leak out between the braid and outer covering. This was on both front lines. I threw them out and replaced them with Goodrich items. But I am still running the cheap ones on the rear.

[marvis]

Support the people who support the scene. Buy local. Well worth the money and you know they will work/fit and be good quality.

marvis.

[RobertoX]

^ +1

get something adr approved

[muncher]

what sort of costs are you looking at for buying them in Aus??

[RobertoX]

$180 for the front pair - one piece with the centre mount and shipping

the rear depends if drum or disc

[70XIN]

lol

[Beck]

To the OP: you're obviously into cars, so at the risk of being called a spelling/grammar nazi, here's some information that will probably be helpful to you -

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=brake
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=break

Cheers.

[balistic]

Not having a go at anyone here, I know what the prices for ADR approved lines are locally, I'm just genuinely curious as to how 2 x braided teflon hoses with some crimped on fittings at each end can justify the price tag?

The ones I purchased were ~$108US shipped inc postage and that was for 5 x lines to suit AE86 with disc brake diff? Probably 1/3 the price of equivelant locally made kit. They apparently meet D.O.T. MVSS-106 guidelines which is the US equivalent of the ADR I assume, or good enough for all highway going vehicles in the US anyhow. Does the ADR accreditation cost a lot of money or something?

[Konakid]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FoolyCooly @ Sep 1 2008, 12:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=582190)</div>
I'm running braided lines on the front. pedal response from that and bmc stopper improves brake pedal feel. I can tell where my tyre threshold is before they lock.

Things to look out for.
improper end fitting installation, frayed braiding, kinking during shipment, correct thread on end fitting (some are threaded to tighten anti clockwise) and what rubber they are made from. Some lines although braided can be of a rubber not suited to brake fluid.[/b]

Agreed!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blown86 @ Sep 1 2008, 12:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=582197)</div>
I was just looking at a brake kit last week, supposedly from the US.
It appears that quite a few yank suppliers present products as US origin but the parts are actually cheap Chinese stuff.

For example, the kit I saw had cheap Chinese braided brake lines, too dodgy to fit and the fittings were very poor quality, it all went into the bin.
This was a $3,500 brake kit! :blink:[/b]

Even if they claim to be "Made in USA" they most probably arent. I would recommend investigating thoroughly before buying! Buy quality Goodridge or the likes, there are some things you shouldn't skimp on, everything is cheaper for a reason.

[RobertoX]

and yes, adr is $$

also the rear lines are cheaper....

[balistic]

Well if they are made of rubber - you've been burned to start with! The idea of stainless braided lines is to do away with the rubber lines to try and eliminate or reduce as much as possible expansion of the line under pressure. For brakes lines, they are generally a teflon tube, with a stainless braid to protect the teflon, then a nylon coating to add some abrasion resistance to the braid.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
everything is cheaper for a reason.[/b]

So the main reason for the price difference is the ADR approval? This does not automatically mean the "non ADR approved"(ie. cheaper) lines are crap. In my case, my car is not road registered so where is my incentive to spend 3 times more for brake lines than what I can get them for on eBay? Yes things are cheaper for a reason, but some times it pays to find out "what" that reason is before just writing them off as cheap crap.

I may be wrong - there may be other reasons why locally made lines are crazily expensive?

[kaibeecee]

most braided lines are still rubber inners underneath. the idea of the metal braid sheath is merely to avoid physical wear that would occur from rubbing.

the ones on ebay are just generic china made. simply not good quality materials. they may boast about being compliant to US regs. but that doesn't mean it'll last for longer than a few months. when you pay for better quality, you pay for better quality fittings, better materials, one being decent stainless composition among other things. its the small things that add up.

i've seen an ebay braided line blow out. not a mate of a mate of a friends budgie heard it on the internet, i've SEEN it. with my own eyes. the other side had a crack in the banjo fitting to boot. these were no doubt "US standards compliant"

I sure as fuck don't want that to be me having my foot kick the floor when i want to be hauling up my car safely

i've said it before, and will say it again - you get what you pay for. you buy cheap shit, you still get cheap shit!

[Konakid]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HighLife @ Sep 1 2008, 10:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=582242)</div>
Yeah I bought a set of braided brake lines off eBay for my Sprinter, they were actually from Canada though - less than half the price of local ones. They arent hard to make if you have the hose, fittings and the right tools, most good brake or hose places will make them so I figured its no different some brake place here making them than some place in the states or Canada.

But, having said that:

I havent used them yet.
My car is a track only car so I don't have to worry about ADR's etc.
I will be checking them regularly(ie between races) for any signs of failure or leaking.

I purchased a set of non ADR cheap brake lines a few years ago for my WRX, they were fine for about 6 months or so with half a dozen sprints thrown in until before one meet I was changing the brake pads and noticed that on the front lines the outer nylon covering of the braid was swollen with brake fluid, it seems as though the fittings on the ends of the hose werent sealing properly and allowing fluid to leak out between the braid and outer covering. This was on both front lines. I threw them out and replaced them with Goodrich items. But I am still running the cheap ones on the rear.[/b]


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HighLife @ Sep 1 2008, 03:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=582320)</div>
Well if they are made of rubber - you've been burned to start with! The idea of stainless braided lines is to do away with the rubber lines to try and eliminate or reduce as much as possible expansion of the line under pressure. For brakes lines, they are generally a teflon tube, with a stainless braid to protect the teflon, then a nylon coating to add some abrasion resistance to the braid.



So the main reason for the price difference is the ADR approval? This does not automatically mean the "non ADR approved"(ie. cheaper) lines are crap. In my case, my car is not road registered so where is my incentive to spend 3 times more for brake lines than what I can get them for on eBay? Yes things are cheaper for a reason, but some times it pays to find out "what" that reason is before just writing them off as cheap crap.

I may be wrong - there may be other reasons why locally made lines are crazily expensive?[/b]

You have completely contradicted yourself in your two posts. Maybe you worded it wrong?

ADR certification would add some cost but the main incentive to spend 3 times the amount on some reputable quality, motorsport tested brake lines is that they will actually last longer than one pad change.

[Dom86]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (marvis @ Sep 1 2008, 08:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=582253)</div>
Support the people who support the scene. Buy local. Well worth the money and you know they will work/fit and be good quality.

marvis.[/b]

i agree but....
Whats the point of supporting the people who are potentually ripping you off.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (muncher @ Sep 1 200potentiallypotentially8, 09:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=582266)</div>
what sort of costs are you looking at for buying them in Aus??[/b]

Roughly $100 a line i've been quoted by a couple different shops. See why i'm shopping around....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Beck @ Seppotentially 1 2008, 10:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=582295)</div>
To the OP: you're obviously into cars, so at the risk of being called a spelling/grammar nazi, here's some information that will probably be helpful to you -

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=brake
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=break

Cheers.[/b]

HaHA, You've found out my secret.... i can't spell, and often make these grammar mistakes. NOW you must DIE! :P
I would change the title(to brake), but then people might think you were crazy :crazy:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HighLife @ Sep 1 2008, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=582305)</div>
Not having a go at anyone here, I know what the prices for ADR approved lines are locally, I'm just genuinely curious as to how 2 x braided teflon hoses with some crimped on fittings at each end can justify the price tag?

The ones I purchased were ~$108US shipped inc postage and that was for 5 x lines to suit AE86 with disc brake diff? Probably 1/3 the price of equivelant locally made kit. They apparently meet D.O.T. MVSS-106 guidelines which is the US equivalent of the ADR I assume, or good enough for all highway going vehicles in the US anyhow. Does the ADR accreditation cost a lot of money or something?[/b]

My point exactly. ADR's do add cost but not that much surely, especially if they are made locally.
In my mind they can't be hard or costly to manufacture(if you know how), i just feel we are being taken advantage of out of naivety. Please someone correct me if i'm wrong.
I've also found an "ENDLESS" kit for around $180 off 'yahoo'. You can't question their quality.

P.S. I hope this Pleases the spelling/grammar Nazi (with a capital N) :teehee:

[Dom86]

Hey who put that last bit in the POST TiTLE???? <_<

my spellinj iz orsum :whistling: :teehee: :pinch:

[balistic]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kaibeecee @ Sep 1 2008, 03:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=582335)</div>
most braided lines are still rubber inners underneath. the idea of the metal braid sheath is merely to avoid physical wear that would occur from rubbing.[/b]

...incorrect, ALL the aftermarket so called braided brake lines I have known are teflon hose. The braid is there because the teflon is not as flexible as rubber, it supports the teflon and stops it from kinking, as well as adding some abrasion resistance. There is no point going to braided hose if the hose is still rubber.

The ones I bought from eBay - the guy said he could make them up to suit any application. The crimped fittings may be imported from China but I'm confident he makes them lines up to suit. To be D.O.T. MVSS-106 approved they must be tested to about twice the pressure that you are likely to see from hard braking applications in a car. The only difference from my brief look over the ADR and DOT specs is, as Dom86 mentioned, that the ADR has a sleeve that fits into the crimped fitting to allow it pass a whip test or something, race cars had been using lines without this for years before it became an ADR requirement for road use.

As always - yes there are dodgy suppliers/manufacturers, so always do your homework.

...throw me some facts - not assumptions.

[balistic]

..yeah I had some cheap ones fail - but it wasnt a catastrophic failure, they started leaking. I didnt even realise until I noticed it when replacing pads before a sprint meet - I had more than likely been driving around on them like this daily for up to month with just a slight drop in fluid level to show for it! I suspect this had something to do with overheating them as I also destroyed a set of brake rotors(cracked in half!) and wheel bearings about the same time from using the wrong brake pads.

I've also been using the same cheap lines on the rear for 4 years and they are still going strong now.

I'm not arguing that there arent cheap stuff around that is crap, I'm just trying to work out why the local stuff is priced so high?

[Oly AE86]

I got a front set and body-diff line through Pirtek for a good price $215 and was quoted $360 from local brake store. I looked at the eBay stuff in US and it sounds really good, but quality just cannot be there.

Anything hydraulic is expensive, the guy who made my lines has a special license that allows him to make them, because they are a pretty serious safety item, and not just anyone can legally make them.

We get other hydraulic lines made up at work, stuff for holding chemicals and oil that is rated 2000psi+ etc and they can be $700+ per metre, its just not cheap stuff to make.

Spend the money, and you will never have any problems.

[ke70dave]

mate of mine bought a clutch cable from these guys

http://www.maltech.com.au/home.html

think he paid 80$ or so

he got braided line covered in plastic, apparently the plastic makes it ADR approved (don't quote me, but he was assured its ADR approved)

it seems to be a custom made place, where you jsut tell them what car its from, or what specs you want and they just make it up.

i think he got them in his letter box within a week of ordering, so its not a bad company by the sound of it.

[preston]

The price of local gear comes from 1 the sourcing of the hose material. 2 the low demand for such an item. 3 the need to be adr approved to openly advertise the sale of such and item.

And yes Highlife is correct in saying Teflon-PFA is used in these lines but its not the only material. Natural rubber swells under contact with brake fluid but a synthetic rubber like a neoprene can also be found in some cases.

Dom. 180 for endless kit is pretty good. If it were me i'd go for those.

[Dom86]

I was leaning to wards them.
You get what you pay for!.....but....it pays to shop around!
....get three quotes and take the one in the middle. Just a general rule of thumb.

1 more quetion...
will said BRAKE lines fit/work with FC/FD calipers?

[balistic]

Yep, lines to suit AE86 will bolt up to FC calipers no dramas.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
The price of local gear comes from 1 the sourcing of the hose material. 2 the low demand for such an item. 3 the need to be adr approved to openly advertise the sale of such and item.[/b]

hmmm I'm not so sure about these statements?

1. I can find many suppliers of teflon hose on the net with retail pricing starting around $3 per foot! Thats without any wholesale or bulk discount.
2. Low demand?! WTF? Anyone serious about performance mods eventually upgrades to teflon braided lines?
3. ADR approval - so far this seams to be the only contributing factor for price that I can see.

[LevinD1]

where did you go to get quotes for the lines dom? theres a company called couplers we use in malaga that makes up brake lines etc... they r over the road from that better choice servo on alexander dr, not far from ur place... if that helps

[Vezza]

Hmm think I'll get me a set of maltech lines and see how they go, handy since they're just round the corner from me... all this time and I never knew. Here I was thinking the Geelong/ Drysdale area had nothing to offer in performance parts.

[preston]

using the same lines as what i used on jdm calipers dom. only thing is i had to take out the little thing inside the caliper where the rigid line normally connects.

Highlife: i guess point 1 and 2 might not always ring true in other locations but around perth you tend to have to either wait or hunt elsewhere. Hunting on the net is one thing. It is another for a local store to hold stock of such hose. You'd be surprised how a smaller population affects what products and stuff we have over this side. Heck i can't even get me a can of dr. pepper without having to drink an imported one from england.

As for people upgrading to braided lines over here. Its not very common. Majority of the import scene over here doesnt even consider it with most common things to do is upgrade to larger calipers, bmc and put a bmc stopper on.

[mc68]

buy metres of teflon braid, go into any race car preparation shop (theres a few around) tell then you need so many banjo fittings in -3 walk out with considerably poorer...make them yourself.


why would anyone even consider buying rubber braid lines :\

[Dom86]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LevinD1 @ Sep 2 2008, 11:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=582744)</div>
where did you go to get quotes for the lines dom? theres a company called couplers we use in malaga that makes up brake lines etc... they r over the road from that better choice servo on alexander dr, not far from ur place... if that helps[/b]

One place was in ossy park, hector st. The other was northern suburbs.
Will give them a call.
By the way, not working there anymore. Now at Helmet House.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FoolyCooly @ Sep 2 2008, 06:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=582986)</div>
using the same lines as what i used on jdm calipers dom. only thing is i had to take out the little thing inside the caliper where the rigid line normally connects.

Highlife: i guess point 1 and 2 might not always ring true in other locations but around perth you tend to have to either wait or hunt elsewhere. Hunting on the net is one thing. It is another for a local store to hold stock of such hose. You'd be surprised how a smaller population affects what products and stuff we have over this side. Heck i can't even get me a can of dr. pepper without having to drink an imported one from england.

As for people upgrading to braided lines over here. Its not very common. Majority of the import scene over here doesnt even consider it with most common things to do is upgrade to larger calipers, bmc and put a bmc stopper on.[/b]

Population definitely makes a difference.
The more you can get/sell/supply, the cheaper it is(buy bulk). Which is why I thought these line might not have been so bad.

[mech`s blue]

hey kev you need to get your dr pepper from subi shops. thats where i get mine from and it ain't the stuff imported from uk

and dom did you try enzed in ozzy park. i took my original lines to them and asked them to use the fittings from that but change the lines to braided and they only cost me like 70 each. also i RECOMMEND that get you master cylinder rebuilt at the same time as usually the pressure that is now not absorbed in the old lines usually stuffs the seals in the mc.

[Konakid]

The main reasons that certain brands are more expensive is because they arent copies with no R&D made in a dimly lit factory in some third world country by someone who can't speak English.

[Intense]

Hmmm this thread seems be going down the same track as another one...

[balistic]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
The main reasons that certain brands are more expensive is because they arent copies with no R&D made in a dimly lit factory in some third world country by someone who can't speak English.[/b]

...oh yes of course. Many 100's hours of R&D goes into a length of teflon tube with a couple of crimped threaded/banjo fittings on the ends!! :lol: :huh:

The local guys that make them and charge a fortune for them use commonly available parts that anyone can buy off the shelf from the many suppliers all over the planet, do a search on google for teflon braided tube, its not hard to find the stuff and its cheap enough. These things are simply a hydraulic hose with suitable fittings crimped onto the ends, no high tech investment required. The same hoses have been around for years in racing and industry, long before "Endless" or "Greddy" put their names on them and some pretty packaging.

Take a length of hose, stick some fittings on the ends, insert into crimping machine, you have a brake hose! Boy that was hard, luckily all the R&D was done for me!! :lol:

This thread has deteriorated because people are trying to justify the price of these items with opinion and assumptions, but no facts. :(

[Konakid]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HighLife @ Sep 3 2008, 02:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=583284)</div>
...oh yes of course. Many 100's hours of R&D goes into a length of teflon tube with a couple of crimped threaded/banjo fittings on the ends!! :lol: :huh:

The local guys that make them and charge a fortune for them use commonly available parts that anyone can buy off the shelf from the many suppliers all over the planet, do a search on google for teflon braided tube, its not hard to find the stuff and its cheap enough. These things are simply a hydraulic hose with suitable fittings crimped onto the ends, no high tech investment required. The same hoses have been around for years in racing and industry, long before "Endless" or "Greddy" put their names on them and some pretty packaging.

Take a length of hose, stick some fittings on the ends, insert into crimping machine, you have a brake hose! Boy that was hard, luckily all the R&D was done for me!! :lol:

This thread has deteriorated because people are trying to justify the price of these items with opinion and assumptions, but no facts. :([/b]

No assumptions have been made, i took your real world experience of a low price, substandard quality product failing to do its intended job for an extended period.

Parts cost more when they are made in more developed countries. These countries have, more often than not, created, revolutionised, tested and qualified their products because the economy can support such expenditure as people (consumers) are willing to pay for (and have the money to spend on) specialised parts. The exact reason you hear of German rose joints and dampers like Bilstein, Japanese coilovers, Swiss watches, Italian Ferraris, Australian clotheslines like the Hills Hoist, Performance wheels, etc.

Fast forward to the 21st century where product originality and revolution is practically non existent, so to break your way into a new market, you copy what a successful company has already done, get it manufactured in a 3 world country where labour and materials costs next to nothing, put it in 'shiny' packaging and sell it at half the price of the original to clueless westerners who take everything at face value.

There is no opinion there, that is fact. Make of it what you will.

[balistic]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Meathead #2 @ Sep 3 2008, 02:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=583303)</div>
Parts cost more when they are made in more developed countries. These countries have, more often than not, created, revolutionised, tested and qualified their products because the economy can support such expenditure as people (consumers) are willing to pay for (and have the money to spend on) specialised parts. The exact reason you hear of German rose joints and dampers like Bilstein, Japanese coilovers, Swiss watches, Italian Ferraris, Australian clotheslines like the Hills Hoist, Performance wheels, etc.

Fast forward to the 21st century where product originality and revolution is practically non existent, so to break your way into a new market, you copy what a successful company has already done, get it manufactured in a 3 world country where labour and materials costs next to nothing, put it in 'shiny' packaging and sell it at half the price of the original to clueless westerners who take everything at face value.

There is no opinion there, that is fact. Make of it what you will.[/b]

Ok, I agree with that as a very vague "generalisation". But to get back to specifics, we are talking about a simple hydraulic hose here, usually consisting of 3 simple components that any brake shop with the right equipment can put together from commonly available parts! Not coilovers, not a swiss watch or a Farrari, nothing with moving parts or high technology.

I'll accept ADR's add some cost, the machine to crimp the ends cost a bit but that would be recouped pretty quickly after selling a bunch of lines. The components from what I can see don't add up to reflect the high price being charged. Unless someone knows more? I'm happy to be shown where the price comes from, I just can't see it yet?

[Konakid]

The high cost of Labour? The rising cost of raw materials in Australia because other countries are buying them?

The fact that the Banjo fittings, Teflon lining and tolerances would no doubt be excellent quality and have very fine tolerances using quality machines which arent cheap.

Its not a high price thats being charged buy local manufacturers, its just that others are damn cheap really.

[Dom86]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mech`s Blue @ Sep 2 2008, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=583147)</div>
hey kev you need to get your dr pepper from subi shops. thats where i get mine from and it ain't the stuff imported from uk

and dom did you try enzed in ozzy park. i took my original lines to them and asked them to use the fittings from that but change the lines to braided and they only cost me like 70 each. also i RECOMMEND that get you master cylinder rebuilt at the same time as usually the pressure that is now not absorbed in the old lines usually stuffs the seals in the mc.[/b]

Thanks Aaron. Will try them also.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (intense @ Sep 3 2008, 10:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=583274)</div>
Hmmm this thread seems be going down the same track as another one...[/b]

What did you expect, you on AE86DC! Where is that retard pic when you need it :P

Its good to here peoples opinions and insite though! Especially when you find out where to get Dr Pepper from..... Who drinks that crap?????

[balistic]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dom86 @ Sep 3 2008, 03:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=583330)</div>
What did you expect, you on AE86DC! Where is that retard pic when you need it :P

Its good to here peoples opinions and insite though! Especially when you find out where to get Dr Pepper from..... Who drinks that crap?????[/b]

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/176058.jpg

LOL.. I posted that originally, and now I'm guilty of it myself, I should have learnt :rant:

...here is the emoticon I need http://www.wrx.com.au/forum/images/smilies/icon_wall.gif

[Dom86]

:!roflmao: :!roflmao: :lol:

Thats the one :hammer:

[mech`s blue]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dom86 @ Sep 3 2008, 02:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=583330)</div>
Especially when you find out where to get Dr Pepper from..... Who drinks that crap?????[/b]

haha i do. :2thumbs: remember when they had a comp like ten years ago where there was a 2 in 1 chance to win a free one, i won 17 straight and since then i been hooked...

...i prob haven't been as mentally stable since then either :greenbounce: